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Removed bad images
: Let's try to keep it to one set of pages. One template (e.g. [[Template:Test]]) and one page to use it one (e.g. this page) is enough, any more extensive testing fits better as a subpage of your user page. - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 15:39, 19 August 2007 (CDT)
:: At current, I have made 3 pages including this one with no plans to make any other. You're right though in that one page, [[TestItem]] can be done away with and I can test the results of the template tinkering on this page. Overall, I'm more interested in what people think of this idea in general. To me, it would make this wiki so much more tidy and easy to read, but I'm not interested in foisting my aesthetic onto others if they don't want it. --[[User:Hephaestus|Hephaestus]] 16:46, 19 August 2007 (CDT)
::: It feels strange, but then again it usually does when something new comes along, it will probably grow onto people. On the other hand I'm no wiki-admin, so I'm not in charge to do such decisions ^_^ --[[User:Steffel|Steffe]] 21:19, 19 August 2007 (CDT)
:::: Well, if you want to check it out, I plugged the information for a hatchet into [[TestItem]]. I'll probably be making up a test image that should be used as a standard for such a template. --[[User:Hephaestus|Hephaestus]] 22:08, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
::::: Hmm, I kinda like the old (current) version better, it feels so empty with the template-version :/ Then again, it's just that, a test so far. --[[User:Steffel|Steffe]] 19:55, 22 August 2007 (CDT)
::: I suppose listing the improvement method on the skill pages should be enough. Any exception to the normal improvement method should be mentioned on the item page itself. [[User:Manny|Manny]] 10:00, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
: It's good to see everyone's so eager to get started, but please hold your (so far unimplemented) horses. Egal finally implemented ParserFunctions, so I have in mind to tinker quite a bit with the templates now. - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 16:18, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
:: Well, some of us have already started, but for now we can put the brakes on. What are your plans? I mean can't you tinker with the templates even after we've template-ized the pages or do you have something more drastic in mind? --[[User:Hephaestus|Hephaestus]] 16:36, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
::: Check out what I did to [[Template:Test]] (demoed on this page) for a basic idea. We want to remove as much redundancy as possible, especially the "method" explanation apart from the actual items. - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 16:46, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
:::: Aesthetically I like what you did very much. However, and speaking of redundancy, doesn't it seem redundant to list a skill twice in a row when talking about improving? Is there a way we can indicate that making an item relies on a skill as well as the tools that belong to that skill set to improve? I do worry that the method section may have been tightened up too much. While it was kind of bloated, there was a use. When confronted with the act of using an iron lump on a large anvil there may be two dozen choices in 4 menus available. For clarity's sake, I think it would be nice to somehow concisely indicate the path down that tree. Again, the old way was a bit bulky and not at all concise. I'm hoping we can come up with something new. --[[User:Hephaestus|Hephaestus]] 16:59, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
::::: That's what discussion is for. I agree that having the skill listed twice seems redundant, I did it that way to allow for exceptions. However, it's also possible to hide that entire section unless there is an exception. Adding the create category is also just a matter of including new parameters. We could do "Select Create / {{{group}}} / {{{name}}}" or "Select Create / {{{create}}}" or some other variation. Which would you prefer? - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 17:14, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
(new indent) I think just Create>Group is good but only for those entries where there are a ton of choice. I think just the way you have it is perfect for most things. Also, I prefer to use ">" simply because that's the symbol the game uses. I don't know if that makes for any html or wiki wonkiness. One thing I was thinking was to change "Additional materials" section back to "Tools required" that way we could always put a link to the set of tools needed to imp a certain thing. This would require the creation of only a few pages and would give us a space to give general advice on how to improve things particular to each set. The link in the table could just say "Tools for Improvement" and link to a list of possible tools needed to imp plus advice on how best to go about it. What do you think? One small thing I'd like to point out is that I think the image should be centered in the space. --[[User:Hephaestus|Hephaestus]] 17:48, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
: Okay, now it adds a third line saying "Select submenu Create > Group-param" if the parameter group is given. The text "select submenu" could be replaced by something different. I also merged skill and improve, so it now has one section "Skill and improvement" which says "Uses skill-param" normally, and "Uses skill-param, but improves as improve-param" if the parameter improve is given. That way we can keep default tools on the skill page (most already have this), and exceptions are free to link anywhere they want. - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 18:13, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
:: I like it quite a bit. Though could you center the image? Otherwise it's nice and tight, which is what we want, I think. Plus, the aesthetic additions you made to it really make it "pop". I just need to bone up on how to use these parameters then I'd be happy to start editing in this new template. --[[User:Hephaestus|Hephaestus]] 18:18, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
::: Image should be centered now, but I still think we should wait a day or two for other people to comment (probably just going to be Manny though). Changing the style and stuff can be done at any time, but if we decide to change the parameter names, we'd have to redo all the existing template use. In the meantime, there's plenty of other stuff to do. The design for the village/homestead/settlement templates is up for grabs. I'm also interested in some discussion on whether we should plan templates for skill pages or not. - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 18:34, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
:::: I'd like to try and tackle a bestiary template if that's alright with you. I do think a settlement template would be great as well. After that I'd say all that's needed is a building template. I do think we should be careful and make sure this item template is solid, because in my mind all templates should be stylistically consistent. --[[User:Hephaestus|Hephaestus]] 18:51, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
Might I recommend a section on decay rates, which can be filled later? Pinkdaisy was kind enough to tell me what she knew, in terms of real time: Mortar is "mere minutes." Food is every 4-6 hours. Logs, rock shards, walls, fences buildings are daily. Tools are weekly. Ovens and forges are 2-4 weeks, at a guess. --[[User:Thorgot|Thorgot]] 02:04, 29 August 2007 (CDT)
: I would say this fits better in the main body of the article. It is not something we can record accurately, and the template is intended for the core information. - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 14:34, 29 August 2007 (CDT)
The category thing displays as <nowiki> [[Category:</nowiki>[[weapon smithing]]<nowiki> items]] </nowiki> here, I'm not sure how to fix that. Maybe this should be optional btw, things like [[milk]] or the [[yoyo]] would be getting it's own category. [[User:Manny|Manny]] 05:01, 29 August 2007 (CDT)
: I fixed the category issue. The lonely items would indeed be getting their own category, but that's a consequence of them being the only items from their skill. There may be more later, and it doesn't cost us anything to categorize them when the template does it automatically. - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 14:34, 29 August 2007 (CDT)
:: Allright. Is the template ready to be used now? --[[User:Manny|Manny]] 15:45, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
::: Assuming nobody's burning in with discontent over the parameter names, I'd say we're ready to go. - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 17:00, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
:::: I'm all for it. Thanks for putting the really nice finishing touches on this idea, Dashiva. I think this will increase the quality of this wiki tenfold. --[[User:Hephaestus|Hephaestus]] 18:22, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
== Issues ==
Some observations I made checking out the template in action.
* The item categories will now be filled automatically. Maybe we should take the obvious step and replace their page text with a template as well? Since the item template automatically categorizes items, it also seems proper to change the notice on how to add items to the category.
* Should the item template also add everything to Category:Items?
* Some items can be created with A on B, and B on A. Other items only work one way, and some items like large anvil cannot be used as the active item, ever. My personal inclination is to only list the "right" way (tool active, material right-clicked) even if the reverse works as well.
* Should the template add pages to e.g. Category:Items_missing_skill_classification, Category:Items_missing_create_menu_group, or similar? That would make it easier add a partial template and fix it later, rather than having to research everything up front.
Let's hear it. - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 10:04, 1 September 2007 (CDT)
:: My thoughts: First: I like the idea of revamping category pages, but I don't really understand how much work this will entail. If it's a quick fix it seems logical to fix it all at once while we're looking at it anyway
:: Second: Yes, absolutely. Though we sort of have to stay diligent to make sure that erroneous items aren't added to the wrong categories.
:: Third: I don't see the need to list a second way if it's possible. I agree with you that we should pick the "right" way and stick with it.
:: Fourth: I guess my understanding of how these parse function templates works isn't deep enough to really have an opinion on that. How does this work?
:: --[[User:Hephaestus|Hephaestus]] 11:46, 1 September 2007 (CDT)
::: 1) I've added a prototype of the item category template. It needs another extension installed, or alternatively we can provide the skill name as an input parameter every time. I'll talk to Egal about it. 2) Added Category:Items to the template. 4) Any template missing at least one of active,passive,group,materials,result,skill will be added to Category:Incomplete_item_templates. 5) I have also added support for the special value "no" for materials (items that don't need finishing) and improve (items that cannot be improved).
::: New issue: What about items that aren't obtained by crafting? - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 07:13, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
:::: Those do not need a template I guess. None of the fields in the current template applies to them. --[[User:Manny|Manny]] 07:30, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
What to do with the [[Miscellaneous items]] items such as the [[fishing line]]? They get the [[:Category:Miscellaneous items items]] by the template, which does not look good imo --[[User:Manny|Manny]] 06:51, 19 September 2007 (CDT)
: While it may not look good, that is what they are in the end. As for fixing it, it would probably be best if we changed the category pattern (e.g. "<skill> products" or simply "<skill>"), and since we're going to template the item categories anyone it wouldn't be much extra work. Personally I don't consider it a significant problem, though. - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 18:23, 19 September 2007 (CDT)
<b>(Vowels and plurals)</b> I've noticed that the sentence structure of the active and passive items uses "a" assuming singular. Yet things like [[small nails]] are really singular only as far as the game is concerned. I guess we could append "handful of" to make the sentence look right. Also, of course, if the active or passive item start with a vowel the article will be incorrect and should be "an" not "a". --[[User:Hephaestus|Hephaestus]] 12:41, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
: This is the problem that never dies. My best solution is to avoid the issue completely, by either changing it to 1 (gives "Activate 1 {apple}") or removing the particle entire (would lead to "Activate {apple}" which users could make "Activate {an apple}" in the parameter). - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 10:08, 3 September 2007 (CDT)
<b>(Another parse suggestion)</b> Is it possible to make the materials subsection a parsed section? If something really only has two elements (and that's a lot oof things) this section seems unnecessary. --[[User:Hephaestus|Hephaestus]] 13:22, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
: Good point. Section will now hide itself. - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 10:08, 3 September 2007 (CDT)
:: Something going wrong with materials here: http://www.wurmonline.com/wiki/index.php/Floor_board --[[User:Manny|Manny]] 05:20, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
::: Was the result of a fix to remove an empty line if the group parameter was missing. But missing group is an error anyhow, making valid templates work takes precedence. Fix reverted. - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 16:31, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
== Images ==
[[User:Lainiwakura|Lainiwakura]] said on Template:Item: Could pass a variable here to choose image format?
Also set me thinking about the actual images. Would it be the icon or the rendered model? What is the benefit of including an image? Who would create them? - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 06:15, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
I have also added an image parameter to allow arbitrary file names. - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 06:52, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
: Rendered models, ppl tend to like to see how stuff looks in-game. See here for an example image: http://www.wurmonline.com/wiki/index.php/Image:Pickaxe.png. Anyone could make them. --[[User:Manny|Manny]] 06:56, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
:: Can you use another if statement for these? <tt><nowiki>_item.jpg/.png/_item.png/.jpg</nowiki></tt> ...I've forgotten how to do it. :P <p><small>--[[User:Lainiwakura|Lain Iwakura]] 09:35, 2 September 2007 (CDT)</small></p>
::: #ifexist would make it possible, but I don't think the complexity is worth the benefit. Most likely, one or two people will end up creating almost all the images, so they will be able to decide on a single format (and change the template to match). For exceptions, the image parameter is available. - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 10:08, 3 September 2007 (CDT)
== Changes to the item template ==
There are a few outstanding issues, let's see if we can get anywhere.
; Listing total materials
: This one has been solved outside the template system, by listing the materials in the main article text. As the template box is already quite big, and the total materials often recurses into the submaterials for certain components, and few items are complex enough to warrant it, it is in my opinion a good idea to keep it outside.
; Listing which item must be activated
: We currently do this. In theory. However, since many items can be created both ways, I suspect many of the pages do not have the right order. Furthermore, it is a rather useless piece of information. If the order isn't flexible, and also opposite to what is expected, we could list that in the article text.
: Listing this does give natural flow to the template box text, which is a reason for keeping it in. On the other hand, we could remove the step descriptions, and then we could get rid of the group as well (another rather useless bit of info).
; Listing which item affects success rate and which affects QL
: This is useful information. However, I'm not sure how to present it. I'm also not sure it's practical to expect most people to determine this on their own. See next point as well.
; Listing which item (or both) is destroyed, which items take damage, which become scrap, etc
: This is also somewhat useful, as it tells you what to expect on failing. On the other hand, it's even worse than the previous step to present.
Hoping for comments. - [[User:Dashiva|Dashiva]] 08:56, 3 September 2008 (CDT)
